Burn in Hell for All Eternity?

Giovanni Stradano - Illustrations For Dante's Inferno, 1587

A recent comment by Mary Lawthers on the AVM Facebook page concerning her experience with the Commission on Ministry of the Diocese of Albany has generated some online discussion.

A couple of years ago Mary sought permission of the commission to pursue a diaconal ministry.  According to her account, a priest on the commission told her that “to be an ordained person in the DOA you have to be willing to confront all homosexuals, and let them know that if they do not change they will burn in hell for eternity.”  Mary naturally found this statement of belief to be both offensive and personally cruel, and said so.  Unfortunately, but not unpredictably, her candidacy did not proceed.

The author of this outrageous remark was subsequently identified as The Rev. David F. Ousley.  I recall David Ousley from when I was a member of the Commission on Ministry, probably some time around 2004-2005.  Our infrequent conversations were cordial, and I found it difficult to believe that he could have expressed himself in this way to a candidate before the commission.  So, with Mary Lawlor’s permission, I decided to write to The Rev. Ousley to confirm what had been reported.  I sent him the following email through the diocesan website over a week ago:

Dear David+

A few years ago I had the pleasure of serving with you on the Commission on Ministry of the Diocese of Albany. As you recall, I left the Commission voluntarily, largely because of my perception that no candidate who expressed liberal or progressive opinions would receive fair consideration. If this impression was misplaced, I assume that you will correct my thinking. But as a former member of the Commission on Ministry, I am writing to you to request your recollections of a matter that came before the Commission.

Recently, on the AVM Facebook page, Mary Lawthers recalled a conversation with you in your capacity as a member of the Commission, in which you told her that " to be an ordained person in the DOA you have to be willing to confront all homosexuals and let them know that if they do not change they will burn in Hell for eternity." I do not recall hearing about this at the time of my service on the Commission, so I assume that it occurred after my tenure. But since it has become a matter of comment on Facebook, I want to ask you:

1. Did that conversation take place as reported? If so, did this remark reflect your considered theological opinion at the time? If it did, do you still hold such a position or have your thoughts on the matter changed in any way?

2. If these remarks were reported correctly, would you say that they reflected the majority position of the Commission on Ministry at the time? Would this correctly reflect the continued position of the Commission on Ministry, or has the position of the majority of the Commission been modified in any way?

3. If the candidate in question again appeared before the Commission under similar circumstances, would you express your opinion on the matter in the same way again? If not, how would you modify these remarks, given another opportunity?

Thank you for replying to my request for clarification. The reported incident has become a matter of some comment on Facebook, and I wanted to ask you your recollection of the matter before adding my thoughts to the discussion thread.

Sincerely,
John White

To this date, I have not received a reply from The Rev. Ousley.  Granted, there have been other communications with the diocese and clergy that have unaccountably been lost in transit.  It may be that Rev. David has not received this letter until now.  I prefer to believe that explanation rather than the alternative, which is tacit agreement to the charge that the Commission is  bullying toward candidates for ordination, as well as being homophobic.

Dr. William Hammond of this diocese reminds us on Facebook of the 1998 Lambeth Conference resolution regarding sexuality, which states that  "We commit ourselves to listen to the experience of homosexual persons and we wish to assure them that they are loved by God and that all baptised, believing and faithful persons, regardless of sexual orientation, are full members of the Body of Christ".  How is that commitment expressed in the actions of the Commission?

Another lay person in the diocese, Ann Carlson, commented on Facebook that she personally knew of another candidate who “had the same experience as Mary, and had heard of at least one other person who was also grilled on a position on homosexuality in that process.”  As Ann says:

“it appears that it used to be standard practice. Let's hope -- and let's try to make sure that -- it is no more.”

Comments

[Rev. Paul Hartt]

Ms. Lawthers,

The issue is not mine to address. It is Rev. Ousley's should he so choose to respond to the manner in which it is being presented here. For the record, I do not agree with Rev. Ousley's views as presented here. Hell and eternity are God's domain, not the COM's. Concern for Diocesan teaching and Canons, however, are of necessity their concern.

As for the concern about spirit and tone, I would draw your attention to the December 1st letter of the Rev. Ann Gaillard on the AVM page. It appears my view is shared by another otherwise supportive of AVM's endeavors.

[Mary Lawthers]

The lack of discussion and comment from the more conservative people in the DOA speaks to the truth of what I experienced.

[William F. Hammond]

Fr. Hartt, my citing of Bishop Herzog's 2003 address was by way of indicating the public stance of the Diocese at that time. The question raised by this thread is whether it has changed since early 2007. Indeed if the canonical changes made in 2008 were not disingenuous, the hot button issues in this category should be off limits in discernment proceedings except for the simple question of whether the candidate conforms to the standard of those canons -- a standard by which ALL clergy need to be periodically queried, perhaps during the time of renewal in Holy Week.

[Mary Lawthers]

I find it interesting that the Rev. Mr. Hart chose to attack John White as the presenter of this discussion, rather than addressing the issue that John presented.

[Rev. Paul J Hartt]

Mr. Hammond is to be commended for his response to this unfortunate effort to ignite discord and accusations in the very season of "Peace of earth, good will toward men." Mr. White needs to examine what is driving him to these extreme acts of provocation and attention seeking of late. Truly, you are turning a Jerry Springer corner at Openly Episcopal.

[William F. Hammond]

In the fall of 2003 at the special meeting of Diocesan Convention (for consideration of the proposal to join Bishop Duncan's "Network") Bishop Herzog said this:

"At the same time, I expect that we are to be a church, which welcomes every genuine seeker, every woman, and man who desires to come in faith to Christ, every person who decides to become a disciple of Jesus. As a parish priest, I have always had gay parishioners. And I have had parishioners who were involved heterosexually with people to whom they were not married. I endeavored to be a good pastor to all. I expect the clergy and lay leaders to manifest the same pastoral concern and care. ...

"And, we will stand side by side with every group whose lives are threatened because of violence, hatred, poverty or race as well as sexual orientation."

For the full context see http://www.albanyepiscopaldiocese.org/news/feature/0010.html