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October 15, 2011

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Rev. Paul Hartt

I thought that it might be of value to know what a well-known progressive Bishop next door to Bishop Lawrence has to say in a recent editorial. See the editorial by Bishop W. Andrew Waldo of the diocese of Upper South Carolina in the Charleston Post and Courier: http://www.postandcourier.com/news/2011/oct/22/22waldo/

John White

I have no doubt that Rev. Hartt sees the bishop of South Carolina as a defender of the faith against forces of modernism. But his argument is specious in that it sets up a false dichotomy. Bishop Lawrence has nullified the C&C of The Episcopal Church in his diocese. He refuses to receive the Presiding Bishop. He makes no reference to Episcopal on his official website. This is prima facia evidence of abandonment of the Church authority he has sworn to uphold. As someone who has read Spong, I had many criticisms. But his intellectual arguments are designed to suggest a framework of faith for those who find “orthodox” faith problematic. And there are very real differences between intellectual constructs and concrete, destructive action. Shall we subject the purveyors of ideas to an orthodox Inquisition while elevating as defenders of the faith those who reject duly constituted Church authority? This would be an ironic double standard, indeed.

John White

Canon Brown knows that I gave no assurances. Indeed, my point was the opposite, a clear caution to the bishop and the diocese. Once a diocese nullifies the constitution and canons of The Episcopal Church (which no one can deny has happened in the Diocese of South Carolina), an impaired communion clearly exists. As long as the Bishop of Albany honors his stated intention not to leave The Episcopal Church, no charges can, or will, be made. But it is the conservative, neo-Anglican element in the diocese which poses a challenge to the bishop's position. If they succeed in pushing the bishop in the direction of South Carolina, then it will not be the progressives of the diocese or the national Church that will have to raise the issue of abandonment. Let's see how far Albany is prepared to go in imitation of South Carolina. Actions speak louder than words.

Rev. Paul  Hartt

Is it really not evident to everyone that we have some kind of double standard at play? Bishop Spong can abandoned the Faith for three decades without ten minutes of attention from any disciplinary body of this Church.

But no one in authority seems to care about abandoning the actual Faith of the Church. No Title IV actions there. No, what is at issue is only complete control under any pretext whatsoever over any strong traditionalist voice pointing out the obvious fact of the genuine abandonment.

Christopher Brown+

The Diocese of South Carolina has not abandoned the "faith and discipline" of the Episcopal Church. I have visited Charleston many times over the past 20 years, and it has been obvious to me that South Carolina is one of the healthiest and most vibrant dioceses in the Episcopal Church.

So far as the charges against Bishop Lawrence are concerned, the current investigation is in its early stages and it is hardly clear how it will turn out. Mark Harris of Preludium (one of sharpest and most reasonable progressive voices on the web) has expressed skepticism about the charge of "abandonment of Communion." He makes the key point, "Abandonment, if it is to have much meaning, needs to be reserved for, well, abandonment."

Father Harris does wonder if Bishop Lawrence has displayed a level of "defiance" that is "unbecoming [of] a clergy person" (and I don't believe he has), but his point regarding the charge of "abandonment" still stands.

And I welcome John's assurance that AVM is not planning to accuse Bishop Love of abandoning the faith and discipline of the Episcopal Church.

John White

Canon Brown is unafraid of jumping to extreme conclusions. The trouble is, he is looking at consequences through the wrong end of the spyglass. He is right that The Episcopal Church is not likely to go after the Diocese of Albany. Neither are the progressives among us about jeopardize our position in TEC. After all, it is our church. As TEC continues its trajectory toward radical inclusiveness, Bishop Love has more to fear from the influence of conservative rejectionists, who will push him further toward the position of South Carolina. In that unfortunate diocese it is not the progressives who brought about division, but their bishop, who freely and intentionally has abandoned the “faith and discipline” of The Episcopal Church. It is the progressives who most fear and have the most to lose from such a course. It is the conservative element that is most influential with Bishop Love who are most likely to bring about the fearful future that Dr. Brown envisions.

William F. Hammond

The SCLM proposal to continue with "generous pastoral response" indicates clearly, I think, that use of the trial liturgy would not be required. I think it unlikely that General Convention would attempt to require same-sex unions in the forseeable future before a preponderant majority of the states have acted to permit the same civilly.

Meanwhile there is the call for the Church to spend a while reflecting on its understanding of marriage in the light of changes in societal norms and civil laws. If "norms" is understood in the statistical sense, such changes in societal norms since World War II might be seen to include dramatic increases in the incidence of (1) mothers who work outside the home, (2) divorce, and (3) teenage sexual activity.

Ann Gaillard

I would hate to see in this diocese the kind of litigious actions taken in South Carolina. I agree with Fr. Brown that such actions would be destructive on many fronts. But when will the diocese begin to be willing to have constructive dialogue with the moderate/progressive minority? Ultimately, ignoring the minority is just as destructive as litigation. Quite simply, progressives will A) stop giving to the diocese; or B) leave the Episcopal Church in this diocese, and either leave church completely or seek other faith communities, like the ELCA.

Christopher Brown

Dave DiSisto asks an interesting question. I think we can be certain that General Convention will continue to move forward. What will happen if we reach the point that diocesan canons conflict with national canons? I don’t see Bishop Love backing down. Will he and others be charged with “Abandonment of Communion” for not conforming to the faith and discipline of the Episcopal Church?

My sense is that folks from the national church are more likely to let things stand with the Diocese of Albany than progressives from within the diocese – if only because local progressives live daily with the diocese of Albany and are unhappy with the current situation. One could easily imagine a situation similar to the current litigation against Bishop Mark Lawrence by South Carolina progressives.

Forcing the issue, or attempting to depose members of the diocese, would be destructive. I don’t think there would be any winners. If there were a split, progressives would undoubtedly get the properties, but lose most of the clergy, and probably a majority of the laity. Many parishes would close, most would be hurt. Finances would be tenuous, to say the least, and decline inevitable.

Is this what we want?

Dave DiSisto

I received it today also. I've been wondering what impact it will have on our diocese and its canon 6.1 and 6.2. I'm pleased with TEC moving this forward. What is the consensus on how it will play out at the General Convention in 2012? I'm hoping to see some conversation on this once it gets published on the Episcopal News Service website. I'm also going to re-post this blog on my Facebook page.

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